Abu Qatada interview (part 3 transcript)

abuqat3

Bilal abdul Kareem: ISIS pretty much to maintain that, there are only two camps. Either you are in the Islamic State camp, meaning their camp or you are in the camp of the westerners in Obama and such like that. Is it limited only to just either them or you, us or them is it limited to that?

Sheikh Abu Qatadah: Since i was young I’ve been able to expose the falsehood of having two options. I learn this from my shaykh’s, books and other sources. Give a Muslim only two choices and he’ll find another choice. The proof is, for example: either you’re with Saddam (Hussein) or you’re with America. That’s what people in Jordan used to say. “Either you are with Saddam the Arab or you are with the aggressor America and Israel and other than them”.

Why do i have to be with this group of that group. I am with Islam. Where is Islam in this fight? There is none. I want to work for Islam. Someone says: “Either you’re with America or you’re with ISIS”. I’m with the Mujahideen that aren’t with ISIS or America. And these Mujahideen are bombed by the west. The western planes bombing the syrian territories are not bombing ISIS positions only. They’re bombing Ahrar asham, Jabha An Nusra, Ansarudeen… So why are you limiting me either being with this one or that one? This two choice only idea is rejected. This is a game that is played on kids.

It’s not for the Muslim to fall into this evil trap. I am with Islam. If there is a fight with no Islamic sake in it then what is my interest? I’m not with ISIS except for their jihad against the enemies of Islam, if they choose this path. I’m not with them in a fight against Muslims. As it stands now they don’t represent me or the hopes of the Muslims around the world, nor the Mujahideen in Syria or in Iraq. There is one situation that we don’t want to see is when ISIS falls and areas are re-taken, because we can already see what is happening to the Sunnis in those areas.

Bilal Abdul Kareem: ISIS has refused any mediation from anyone outside of their group to settle some differences which are between them and other factions, their reasoning for that is that they are the state and that they do not accept anyone to make a judgement over the state what is your opinion about this?

Sheikh Abu Qatadah: I never imagined that such a statement would come from a student of the religion. I heard this while in prison from Shaykh Abu Muhammad al Maqdisi who said: “ISIS refuses to accept arbitration because they’re a state. Saying ‘It isn’t permissible for a state to sit with small groups”. I said “Shaykh maybe you made a mistake”. Why? Because I cannot imagine that a student of knowledge would make such a foolish and ignorant statement. Because Allah says: “And if two groups from the believers dispute”. This statement of “two groups” is general in nature.

Aishah (may Allah be pleased with her) regarding this verse from Surah Hujaarat said: “The companions didn’t implement this verse in the disputes between Ali and Muaawiya”. Meaning that our mother Aisha saw that the first applicability of this verse was between the state and another group that fought it. The verse: “And if the two groups from the believers dispute,” means to have the issue to be judged. Their statement is silly and ignorant.

Therefore this is silly and ignorant statement. However it’s clear that if they appeared in court the judgement would be against them so they ran away to sideline the true issue at hand.
They were committing crimes and oppressing others. So the others demanded arbitration. If they accepted arbitration then all would’ve seen their true beliefs of takfir and what led them to fight others. That was their ultimate plot. If they accept arbitration it would have exposed their evil. So they confused the issue by saying we don’t si with… this is ignorant. Whoever is called to judgement by the Quran whether it is ISIS, an individual, group, or family it’s obligatory for them to accept it.

Bilal Abdul Kareem: We sometimes see takfir or they declaring a Muslims to be outside of the fold of Islam, sometimes from people who are either new to practising Islam or they themselves are new Muslims as some of the fighters over there are new Muslims. What is the process to declaring someone to be outside of the fold of Islam, is it really a simple as some people make it out of it?

Sheikh Abu Qatadah: Takfir, and this is an important point, takfir is an Islamic judgement. It it. Let no one say it is an innovation or other than that. No. There is one verse in Surah Baqaraah that speaks about takfir three times. If a Shaykh said whole verse one time they would say he talks a lot about takfir. Just because there are those who misuse the ruling of takfir do we stop its just usage? If there is a way that is misused by someone doesn’t mean that we just closed the entire way. This is an important science. Making takfir on a person is a certainly a possibility.
Allah says in the Quran: “Indeed, those who reverted back (to disbelief) after guidance had become clear to them that is because they said to those who disliked what Allah sent down, “We’ll obey you in a part of the matter”. Allah knows what they conceal. This is proof that there’s such a thing as takfir. Takfir’s something that happened in history and there’s a religious process for it. Likewise it’s something that happens even today and there is a process for it. This issue of takfir is of the most dangerous issues in Sharia’. A man could be whipped depending on his sin. A man could have his wealth stripped away depending on the Islamic ruling by a scholar on a matter.

Takfir is a serious matter that can lead serious results of bloodshed and killing. It can lead to a man’s wife being taken from him. It can lead to him losing his wealth and his deeds nullified. It can lead to his entrance to the hellfire for eternity. Takfir is dangerous but possible. There’s an Islamic punishment for leaving the Deen: “Whoever leaves the religion is to be killed”. The biggest catastrophe is when a baby or an ignorant person who cannot even recall the principals for basic matter, and therefore finds the issue of takfir to be easiest. This is a true tragedy. A young man comes from Canada, Australia, or Europe who doesn’t even know Arabic and can’t properly call the iqaamah, then gives himself the right to kill an Islamic judge. As we’ve seen and heard from trustworthy sources.

One comes and kills a judge and says “He is a kafir!” If you ask him why he’s a kafir he doesn’t know!. We’ve seen examples of tragic takfir a sane person couldn’t speak of. I don’t want to convey too much because it is tragic to speak of. I swear by Allah, it’s as if they look for a reason to make takfir as a joke. These are cases that ae conveyed to me from their own ranks of those who’ve experienced this first hand and not simply hearsay. Therefore ISIS and other than them, because the crisis of takfir has spread, it’s not just ISIS! There are those who make takfir on ISIS. One extremist makes takfir on ISIS because ISIS doesn’t make takfir on those he makes takfir on! There are those who were killed because they made takfir on Abu Bakr al Baghdadi. They don’t make takfir on them because they are enemies, it’s because they don’t make takfir on those they make takfir on. And other ridiculous examples. The issue of takfir has science of its own to be done properly and responsibly by the people of knowledge.

Just this week I received news from those within ISIS ranks complaining that their judges, cannot decide the rulings on issues of blood, separation between a man and his wife, and other than that. Yet, they say with the quickest of ease that so and so is a disbeliever. They cannot rule between separating a man and wife yet they rule on separating a man from his Lord by way of takfir. It’s really strange. I have much news that I don’t want to spread as the people will say I am not telling the truth. Truthfully, the stories are real. It’s those from within ISIS who discuss this news with me regarding what they do.

Bilal Abdul Kareem: In statement just released approximately  2 or 3 days ago, The spokes man of ISIS Abu Muhammad al Adnani, stated that in the Khurasan region which is the areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan, there’re new groups that are connected to them and have a swore an allegiance to them, what do you think is the behind of this statement, what he is really trying to say by making this a public?

Sheikh Abu Qatadah: Firstly this man is ignorant. He’s a despicable person. I’ve not seen a rightly guided man on this path of Jihad who speaks well of him. So many of the Muslims make du’a against him. He is really ignorant. Whoever listen to him speak knows the level of his ignorance. The first time i heard him speak I knew he was a gangster. He has no Islamic knowledge. One of their members tried to display his knowledge and it was a joke. They displayed books he’s read and learned… what is this?. He’s a thug. In the ISIS world if you want to be a leader you have to be a thug. In the world of gangsters a man becomes the leader by being a thug. He goes into a rage, and kills and screams and beats up the people. Adnani is this type of person and this is known about him. HE has no knowledge. He’s merely a loudmouth and those who like this style like him. Some like leaders who scream, shout and kill. Even if he is an oppressor they still like him. Not everyone who is a Mujahid is a student of knowledge and there are those who like this style of person to be their leader. This is so in the world of criminal gangs and international political groups. There are those who follow this kind of ignorant person.

As for the second point when ISIS causes division amongst the Muslims the result is ruin.
The third point: The call of this Adnani, calls his people to fight the Mujahideen. Sir…. America couldn’t defeat Mulla Umar, and the world rose up against Taliban and didn’t vanquish them. America’s happy for them to fight the Taliban because they fight against Islam. This show’s you that this group is false and corrupt. They don’t enter a land except they corrupt it. They don’t enter a land of Jihad except they destroy the Jihad of those who’ve been fighting.

The Taaliban are a shining example from Allah, something our time has not seen, under the leadership of Mulla Umar. And then comes along the criminal Adnani with his lying and corrupt boss Baghdadi calling the people to fight the Taliban. How America must be enjoying this ISIS group. They are a rotten group. Will they have an effect? They won’t have an effect. Those who know Afghanistan know they won’t have an effect. So those two Baghdadi and Adnani along with those with them from the majlis ashura whom we know nothing about!. Perhaps they were Baathists remnants in Iraq who repented and became Islamic leaders of clandestine groups that burst onto the scene whom we have no idea who they are. We don’t know anyone who sits on this council of ISIS.

This group buys the loyalty of people. So the poor take their money and give the oath of allegiance because they can’t afford food. In Syria there are areas of the Mujahideen where people cannot find enough to eat and they’re forced to sell their weapons for food. As for Adnani he has millions. Some he got from the mujahideen, some from the enemies of Allah, some from Kings and others. So it is not unreasonable that these have entered their ranks. Therefore thse paid supporters will not remain loyal. Additionally, whatever is new is nice.

If we wanted to write a book about crimes of Baghdadi we could write many volumes. However ISIS is new in Afghanistan. Those with old issues and problems with the Taliban, what types would be attracted to ISIS?. The poor and those who are looking for trouble. So it’s not strange he found a group there. Soon there will be problems and discord with that group as well. So i’m not concerned about Afghanistan as this is a weak publicity stunt that won’t have much effect. Mullah Umar and the Taliban have a strong and secure presence in Afghanistan and control complete territories there. Also there are areas that they control by night but leaving during day because of drone strikes. The situation in Afghanistan is good. The corrupt situation must be made clear. Allah knows best but i believe the truth will prevail and the outcome will be for the people of the Sunnah.

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